New to All This

For all support and comments on the game "GrassGames' Hearts".
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pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

I've been playing hearts online now for a little over two weeks. This is the first time I have ever played an online game of anything so I thought I would share my experience for what it's worth. I have so much to learn. I was welcomed by many members and I have experienced their patience and support. While I fully understand the rules of Hearts, it's clear I'm not yet picking up on certain playing conventions and what I'll call "the expected play." I'm grateful for most other players responses and I'm learning. I played over 1,000 games against the computer before taking the step of trying to compete against others. I've won 58% of games against the A.I., but just 26% against real competition, so I've got a long way to go.

Within a day or two of beginning, another player started repeatedly asking me where I was. At first I didn't answer because I hadn't figured out how to chat and I was so focused on getting and playing a game. I learned to chat fast enough and have been talking to several other players but this particular one continued to pursue personal information that I did not want to provide and when I didn't answer, started calling me names and telling others that I was dodgy and a fraud. They started warning others not to play with me, saying that I had multiple identities and I was a cheat and a quitter. They supposedly came to this conclusion based on whatever IP address they associated with me as well as the flag decal I chose for my profile. The taunting and personal attacks have continued whenever this person is online with me, even though we have never spoken or played a game together. Has anyone else experienced this?

I will say that the positive has outweighed the negative in my still-new experience, and despite the repeated bullying of this member I plan to continue. To be clear, this is my one and only online identity and I have never cheated or quit on a game. I think my only mistake was being new and naive, not knowing what to do in this awkward situation. Many thanks to all who have welcomed and played with me!

billy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mar 13, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by billy »

I know how disappointing it can be to get loads of reads to a post and get absolutely no replies.
I found your post, well explained and feel I have several similarities to you re playing conventions, having played for just 3 years and having now reached the tender age of 75. Probably too old to learn it all to perfection, like a lot of self-acclaimed others on here. I feel there are some on here, who shouldn't be. They should go and play for money and earn a fortune. This is supposedly a fun game.
As for your personal info re flag, IP addresses, I cannot comment. I'm ok with flag recognition but wouldn't know where to start re IP addresses. I have always been a firm believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt, and without names of your accuser and your supposedly aliases I have to use my own judgement. If the accuser is who I think it is, I have to say I have the highest respect for him and if I were a betting man, I would put money on him usually being accurate. My easy going nature and thinking I know people came to a sharp end this week. A guy, who has been on here longer than me, seems like a decent player. Crap manners !! Usually top 10, never says a thing unless it's to blame someone else for a bad pass or allowing a moon, usually hosts, and actually quit on me in what had become a 2 horse race when he realised he was falling further behind. No names but am waiting for chance to confront him in lobby.
As for the Tutorials from Marek, which on the face of it are good and informative and which I've tried to put into force in the past, still depends mainly on the cards you get. I had a load of abuse for playing Q to the 2nd player in a game of scores 14/15/60/93 or thereabouts and told I should wait for low. I was on 60 btw. Why risk hanging on, and high getting her, or me. I'm not a doctor, so no patients/patience. Him a hairdresser as he was good at splitting hairs. Yes, I jest, can't be serious all the time. You will find there are a load of cheats, quitters and unnecessary abuse in chat which is gamesmanship, designed to unsettle you.
So i wish all my readers the seasons greeting and for those that do read, perhaps you'll realise what you're getting when you invite me. Regards Billy

marekjoz
Posts: 79
Joined: Jun 17, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by marekjoz »

pmath1 - the reason for all this asking etc was because there are here a lot of cheaters, who start another accounts just to ruin others' games. They have a fresh account, start a game and they only intention is to invite a known player and later play the way, that this player would lose and got reduced his score. As the score is nothing serious but the 30 minutes lost in a stupid game bringing fun to nobody but the cheater would be a problem to everybody, who was treated in this way. It is of course not obligatory to give your real name and location here. However here recently such behaviour is an indication, that there may be something wrong with the player, if his flag/country did not correspond to his real location. This was the initial reason for discovering frauders and cheaters. This unfortunately is now a side effect of these events and we also do not know what is the better solution:
- allow frauders and cheaters do whatever they want, which very quickly would ruin this site and any playing sense
- fight against it, accepting the fact, that this may be sometimes not friendly looking
I support Iceman in his efforts of keeping the community resistant against frauders and cheaters.

billy - you are a very good player and I had always respect for your play. My tutorial is rather more suitable for less experienced players, than you, although I am pretty sure you would find there something for you as I would find something useful in your experiences, if you would decide to share it.
The case you describe happens often when there is the second low player expecting to win after low would get the Queen in the last round. He always expects others playing low all the time, just forgetting why this rule exists at all. Let's say quite fairly - exists absolutely in informal way. I think that the reasons for fights and mutual anger are misunderstandings and contradictory or unreal expectations. I hope it will be better soon. Thanks for your input.

pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It makes sense. The only suggestion I might make is perhaps not immediately resort to name calling and taunting when a new player chooses not to engage with whomever is doing the checking. It took a lot for me to finally take the step to play online and no sooner than I did I was being called out and other players were being incorrectly warned about playing with me. Maybe wait until there is some actual evidence, like more than one name associated with an IP address. I totally get members not wanting to play with me because I am new and haven't built a respectable rating yet - I need to pay my dues so to speak - but falsely labelling new players cheats or frauds only hurts the long-term vibrancy and viability of the group. I'm still playing and learning every time. I haven't seen this other player for some time so I'm thinking they may have found a way to block me? If so, that's actually great but I hope they are not encouraging others to block me as well. Anyway, here's to enjoying the game and improving over time!

pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

OK now I see the post from Sunnycorner. So this proves what exactly? That a person travels? And their locations get stalked and posted? Gee thanks. That will make new players feel right at home.

SunnyCorner
Posts: 174
Joined: Nov 17, 2013

Re: New to All This

Post by SunnyCorner »

I have little to add to my last post above - it "proves" exactly what I said it did - you constantly change your IP and the flag does not match. That is a pattern of behaviour that is very familiar to the players on here and it usually indicates a fraudster.

There are exceptions however, and I know of a couple of players who are frequent travellers (working for airlines for example) who have given a credible reason to explain the patterns and, everyone as far as I know, is happy to play with them. No-one is "stalking" anyone or name calling - and everyone is very happy with the fundamental privacy issues.

Now I suggest you offer an explanation and stop your whining - then we can all get on and enjoy the game. Otherwise everyone will think you protest too much sir!

Regards to all. Ice

billy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mar 13, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by billy »

Well, I've been away for 7 days and will be for another 3. Despite having the opportunity to play, I have chosen not too.Still not too sure about IP addresses. Does mine change when I'm not at home ? Also reception and wifi fluctuates and could be unreliable during game and it's simply not worth the hassle of being accused of quitting etc and not being able to prove otherwise. On the upside, it does give me the opportunity to read the forum and submit a few posts. It seems to me that this is more than just a game to some people, taken too seriously by some and brings out the worst in some people.
With Aidan unavailable most of thr time, there will always be issues. I would like to see the bot issue resolved. There should be a further rule, in much the same way, where you choose between, old & new moons and ask, hearts broken, yes or no. Players could then accept whether, with the introduction of bot, the game should end/continue. So many players see this as an opportunity to end/leave/quit when they're so far behind. Not nice when you're leading with the winning post in sight.

Billy

billy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mar 13, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by billy »

Marek,
Thank you for your remarks re my card playing ability. I have to confess that I've often felt you thought differently towards me, although you have always invited me or accepted my invite. It goes to show that putting words down in chat, as in texts and emails, can often be interpreted differently to their true meaning. As for the self acclaimed top guy who quit on me - are you suggesting there may be a good reason for it ? - I know, not from personal experience, that anger and frustration can trigger such action - but is quitting really acceptable for any reason whatsoever. I may have misinterpreted your comment but clarification would be appreciated.

Billy

marekjoz
Posts: 79
Joined: Jun 17, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by marekjoz »

Billy,
I may have not proper understood you question, but are you suggesting that I have ever quit on you?

billy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mar 13, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by billy »

Marek, definitely not you, and I'm sure you never would. It would be easier to name culprit, but prefer to chat to him first to give him a chance to defend himself.

marekjoz
Posts: 79
Joined: Jun 17, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by marekjoz »

Well,
I have witnessed it myself and also from a "top player". It happened a few times already in different circumstances and followed by different explanations. It always happened however after explosion of emotions:
- he was leading almost the whole game and in the last round he just received qs making him not win
- he observed the next time a kind of incompetence of another player, who should with him chase the low, but instead had not enough skills and made another serious mistake

It is rarely personal, just a sign of weakness and helplessness. Every game is another history, after which only conclusions remain and emotions disappear.

There are well known quitters here and since I stopped playing with them, quitting during a play is a very rare occurence...
Sadly - a list for it is required ;-(

pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

Thank you for responding SunnyCorner. I have no desire to argue or debate. I don't know you and - key to our discussion - you don't know me. I acknowledge that you have every right to be skeptical. I assume you would acknowledge that I have every right not to answer your questions. Does that somehow make me worthy of disparagement?

I started playing because I like the game and want to get better. Almost immediately, you - an internet stranger to me - repeatedly asked for my physical location. Is it reasonable that a newcomer might not want to answer that question? I believe it is not only reasonable but appropriate. Yet I became the subject of ridicule. Is that in the best interests of the group?

"No-one is "stalking" anyone or name calling" You published a record you have maintained of my supposed locations. Multiple times now you have called me a fraud, a cheat, dodgy and secretive. Do you now deny it? To any reasonable person that is stalking and name calling.

"...you constantly change your IP and the flag does not match." So if I access the internet from home one day, work another, Starbucks another, then from home again, and from time to time while on a trip that is not only somehow unacceptable but is a good reason to suspect that I'm a fraud? And if a person chooses any flag other than the one corresponding with their IP address they are a cheat? Is it reasonable that a person might choose a flag because it represents their homeland, or their ancestry, or a place they like or recently visited, or because they like the colors, or for any frivolous reason whatsoever? And for the person who does such things, is their only remedy to disclose their personal information to you? Think about it. If such a person were a fraud, wouldn't they be quite likely to answer you and continue to deceive rather than stay silent?

"I suggest you offer an explanation and stop your whining" I believe I have provided a detailed explanation. I'll leave it to others to decide if what I'm doing is whining. I'll state again clearly, I have one and only one username and have never quit on a game. I'm guessing you have some ability to verify that and could confirm that to the group if you chose to. It's only been a month, but I plan to continue playing. The passage of time will only make it clearer. As that happens, perhaps you will reconsider your methods. Marekjoz explained your motivation, I understood it and am thankful to have the information. I can see how that would benefit the group. But in your zeal to expose fraud, will legitimate newcomers continue to be acceptable collateral damage or will you consider a change to your approach?

Happy New Year SunnyCorner. I wish you peace and prosperity.

shimmy
Posts: 2
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: New to All This

Post by shimmy »

Pmath, I am replying only to share with you that I had the exact same experience, verbatim. In fact, the reason I found this forum, was to see how I could go about reporting or seeing if others had similar situations...

I, too, have never played anything online before, but started to play because my husband and son play this game. I started getting attacked, obviously by the same individual, because it sounds identical. I have no idea what an IP address even is- nor do I really care- other than it creeps me out that someone takes the effort to check this out. Besides, how having different IP addresses leads to "fraud" is beyond me.

This is a game for goodness sake. Obviously people play for different reasons and have different personalities, but for me, it is to have fun, to learn as I go along and to distract me from a hellish day at work and other stresses. When this person bullied me- and yes, it is bullying- I tried to find another online game, but sadly couldn't.

I have decided to put my "tough hat" on and ignore, but it does worry me that there are people out there who a) bully online b) actually care so much about others who are simply playing a GAME!!! and c) stalk people online, their whereabouts, IP's, etc. I could go on and on.

Rest assured you were not alone!!!

shimmy
Posts: 2
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: New to All This

Post by shimmy »

I omitted to add that I would have very happily explained why i changed my name and flag- but not through intimidation and interrogation, which is what I experienced. The ironic part was that I changed my name and flag as I was accused of cheating when playing with my husband. It was actually hilarious because being new to the game, I don't really know how to cheat! I always laugh that I WISH I could be more strategic! But, that would never include cheating, which is hardly in my nature...

Thank you for your very articulate posts; I am grateful to have heard some perspectives. Too bad one of the people who is so determined to protect the integrity and honesty of the game lacks some pretty basic people skills...

pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

Thanks for sharing your story Shimmy! Hope we can play a game sometime.

billy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mar 13, 2014

Re: New to All This

Post by billy »

I've possibly missed something here. But who is Shimmy ? Can't find the name on leaderboard. And who's JohnCDA from an earlier post. He doesn't seem to appear on leaderboard either. Having played for best part of 4 years now, I would have expected to see their names in the lobby at some point.
Does anyone know if everyone is listed on the leaderboard ? It goes down to 400 or more places with the low score of 1200. Are there others that just aren't shown.
My two grandsons, Billydot and Martello used to play on here. They were approached and questions were asked. From what they told me, it was a civil chat, no intimidation or interrogation involved, just simply asked if they were one and the same and why did they do it. They were only 13 and didn't know what to say. They don't play now. I realised this wasn't an online platform they should be using, Too much abuse, although they probably hear worse at school !!
It's difficult to know for sure ( as I see it ) who are the fraudsters and who are not. People using the same device will have the same IP address. A few are genuine, but the majority are definitely not, so I feel Sunny is doing a good job in cleaning up this site. Changing names and flags certainly suggests wrongdoing.
regards Billy

SunnyCorner
Posts: 174
Joined: Nov 17, 2013

Re: New to All This

Post by SunnyCorner »

Billy – the forum is separate from the game and vice-versa.

You can register on the forum without ever having played – and you can play without ever registering on the forum.

Thats why we get so much SPAM on here. I've now removed well over 200 adverts that have no connection whatsoever to the games being played.

It is difficult to identify the fraudsters but I suggest you keep a list? Over a period of time you can identify who is known and safe, and who its wise to avoid.

Your point raises others issues concerning the vulnerability and protection of young people. It makes it all the more important to do what we can to ensure that we have some idea who we are playing with.

As we have no other mechanism other than asking a few questions thats all we can do. The innocent, as you have mentioned, who have nothing to hide are usually ok with that. IP address tracers are only accurate to within 25 miles of a persons address so its hardly an invasion of privacy, or intimidation or stalking or bullying is it!

A question has been raised in a post above about IPs, “ how having different IP addresses leads to "fraud" is beyond me”, well let me remind everyone about aristo. He set up over 50 different names on here all playing and quitting on a regular basis. He was targeting good players and those he didn't like and has ruined 1000s of games by his behaviour. He is certainly NOT the only one.

We have caught out a growing number who are on here playing together and claiming no connection yet are clearly in the same location and helping each other as they have the same IP address.

And its always the same excuses followed by the same patterns of abuse and the same old story – it always somebody else's fault.

Regards to all. Ice

pmath1
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by pmath1 »

And what do you do when you're wrong?

SunnyCorner
Posts: 174
Joined: Nov 17, 2013

Re: New to All This

Post by SunnyCorner »

Well - if I were you I'd apologise unreservadly and move on - what exactly was it that you did?

On a more general note - honesty is usually the best best policy and if you tell the truth often enough you'll probably be found out in then end.
Regards. Ice

peter jane
Posts: 1
Joined: Dec 14, 2020

Re: New to All This

Post by peter jane »

thanks for this it really helped

onapar
Posts: 40
Joined: Apr 19, 2017

Re: New to All This

Post by onapar »

There are a number of husband wife father son combos on this site and i will always play with them i do not go along with some people who say there is cheating amoung realitives this is just a fun game no money involved so what is the big deal?

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